Today I went with my Innuos network switch (and my wife) to AudioXperience in Nuenen. They already prepared the installation of their Premier with DD and the S202. The experience of one of the leading audio dealers in the Netherlands is that switches in general matter, even when the music signal comes direct from a server.
We played music direct from a Innuos Zen (streamer/server) via USB (Innuos USBPhoenix board towards MSB USB input module) with and without intervention of the Innuos switch. I think we all know that in many cases it’s hard to tell what the exact differences are when we change certain things in the audio chain, I’m sad to admit that the addition of the switch meant a no brainer. “Sad” because I already traded-in the switch as part of minimizing the system. The overall sound becomes richer, from the first note.
So I can only say to everyone without a switch: at least try one.
I use a cheap media converter (galvanic isolation) powered by a LHY linear power supply ( no wall warts) into a LHY network switch. Works great with a total cost of about $800 USD. I’d be curious if one could “hear” the difference between my home brew and a highend audiophile switch? The signal then feeds my Innuos Zenith NG to MSB USB Pro then Cascade.
I also would like more users to react. I’m curious what the findings of people are regarding the topic of audiophile switches. Perhaps not many are using them as part of increasing the level of the digital signal, even in a singular digital connection.
I wasn’t going to chime in, but you asked for more perspectives. I prefer managed switches, which disqualifies all the audiophile switches I am aware of. Even if you don’t use VLANs in your home network, a managed switch is useful because it keeps statistics on each port. You can see if errors have occurred on a particular port. This helps you diagnose a broken cable, or just gives you peace of mind that all is working perfectly. As far as missing out on all the claimed benefits in audiophile switch marketing materials, well I am not a believer. Based on my computer science and engineering background, I just can not imagine how an Ethernet switch could possibly influence sound quality in any way. I understand I am in the minority here, but again you asked.
My current set up involves my renderer directly connected to a port on my managed UniFi switch in the server rack. I have tried a plain hub, a smaller switch, and an EtherRegen audiophile “switch”, at the audio rack. No difference to my ears, so I decided simpler was better, and removed the hub/switch at the audio rack, and put everything but the renderer on WiFi. The only device I still have there that won’t WiFi is the Oppo 203, but it neither streams, nor updates anymore, just there to play the occasional DVD/BluRay. So no connection to internet needed.
Again though, my system includes a Digital Director. I had improvements in SQ back when I used a microRendu feeding a separate DAC. This effect was even more pronounced when a fiber segment was involved, close to the streamer. IMO each system has different needs. Certainly a home setup utilizing a high quality Router and managed switch will perform better than a system based on a “gaming” router/switch combo unit, and perhaps have less noise associated with it.
Im pretty satisfied with general Ethernet functionality, and feel the optical fiber segment provides protection from external interference.
I am a Ubiquity fan as well. My 5 port managed switches on my stereo rack is a Unifi. I have the opposite preference as you though regarding WiFi. I don’t want any RF transmitters near my stereo rack. Thus the small switch and everything on the rack wired.
I can only believe my ears, I can’t explain why music sounds like it does as influeced by a switch.
At the dealer we listened to the same music with and without the intervention of the Innuos PhoenixNET (changing several times). And despite of the Premier DD music sounds richer. A switch isn’t seen as “fun equipment” for sure, but as a serieus part of the audio chain.
I am generally in agreement with you. When I hear folks describing a better soundstage from a network switch I think how could 1’s and 0’s that are always perfectly delivered do this? I do think noise can be introduced and eliminated. RFI and Power supply’s can introduce noise. I take care to manage those even though I think the DD on the Cascade could do that work. My ears generally agree with my brain on this one!
I currently have 3 five port Ubiquity access switches and 3 Ubiquity wireless access points in my house. My core switch is an older Cisco 16 port model which I will probably replace with a Ubiquity product when the time comes. However, my firewall is PF Sense running on a Netgate appliance. I chose PF Sense many years ago. Ubiquity had pretty limited firewall functionality at that time. I would probably choose Ubiquity if I was making the decision from scratch today, but I already know PF Sense well and Ubiquity is still missing a few firewall features I find useful.
I am always puzzled when people express concerns with RFI and noise. It is never clear exactly what path they are thinking the noise could take that would cause problems inside a well designed DAC. There are no power or ground wires in Ethernet. The signal wires are differential, so they are only compared to each other by the Ethernet receiver. There is a pretty wide tolerance in voltage differential before noise could cause bit errors. Cheap power supplies often pollute the mains, but that is no different from the dozens of wall warts that are plugged in throughout most households. It is impractical to eliminate all the wall warts, so a conditioner or the DAC’s power supply is your only hope for filtering out noise on the mains. Again, I just can’t imagine how an ordinary switch could cause problems inside a well designed DAC.
I find it hysterical to see someone promote the “Bits are Bits” fallacy here. MSB manufactures sound reproduction devices ranging from $12,500 to $375,000; even the least expensive Discrete DAC will audibly reveal changes in sound quality with differing transport devices, including routers and Ethernet switches. I challenge the non-believers to first conduct their own experiments with Ethernet switches on a revealing system. This can be accomplished at a price point below $50 for an AudioQuest Jitterbug, to a $2600 Synergistic Research switch, to switches/transports costing over $75,000. Then, if necessary, you can embark on a journey to learn the science that explains why you hear an improvement in sound quality. Or, you could just enjoy the music.
I enjoy music played through my non-audiophile Ethernet switches and my MSB DAC very much. The result sounds perfect to my ears. The beauty of digital signals is you can pass a perfect signal through an imperfect environment. This is why you can stream music half way around the world through dozens of carrier switches and routers and thousands of miles of cable with no sound quality degradation whatsoever. Unlike analog signal paths, any noise transmitted by one device is not propagated by the next device in a digital signal path. If it were possible for sound quality to be reduced by an Ethernet switch, surely the accumulated reductions from your streaming service to your house over the internet would be catastrophic to the end result. Help me understand why you believe the Ethernet switch in your house maters so much while all the internet devices between you and your streaming service are inconsequential?
Thank you Dan and Ghostship for your contribution to this topic.
Two opposite opinions. I can’t give you an answer Dan, just like the answer to the question why network cables ( just the last one meter) influence the digital signal I don’t have. What I can tell you is that the switch I’m talking about is placed in the one meter domain nearby the audio system, so not somewhere in the house, right out the wall connection.
Mairet - It’s a fair question and has been extensively discussed on many forums for years by Electrical engineers and computer experts.
As a laymen, I have taken away that it’s not about the bits and bytes. An audiophile switch isn’t making them better. As far as I can tell, the issue with switches is they can aim to remove electrical noise that is riding on the copper wires of the Ethernet cables.
That’s why many of the audiophile solutions introduce a fiber optical break in the chain. Ethernet to Optical to a short Ethernet cable to the streamer. Some streamers are capable of accepting the optical input directly obviating the need for the short segment of Ethernet cable.
If an audiophile switch can successfully reject any incoming noise, why can’t a well designed DAC? The DAC engineer has access to all the same galvanic isolation technology as the audiophile switch engineer.
Do you realize these two videos are marketing propaganda published by a company that sells audiophile Ethernet switches?
The first video is an interview with a guy who studied to be a nurse practitioner and somehow ended up designing corporate networks for telephone and video conferences use cases. He repeatedly discusses QOS (Quality of Service), which is primarily used for live conversations over wide area networks where bandwidth is scarce and heavy use applications like sharing CAD files could cause latency in live audio. This is not at all the same as streaming a music file that already exists in its entirety. He also suggests people use 10gb Ethernet for home audio. MSB’s Render V2 product only supports 100mb because that is plenty fast for streaming music and the noise from the lower frequency is easier to mitigate. He also says audiophile switches prioritize music packets, but this is untrue because audiophile switches generally are unmanaged and don’t support QOS. Frankly most of his comments during this one hour long video are not appropriate for a home network, including one where music streaming is really important.
The guy in the second video just doesn’t know what he is talking about. For example, he states high resolution audio files are very large and a heavy load for a home network. Typical home networks are thousands of times faster than what is required to stream any high resolution music file, and they are almost universally very lightly loaded.
The bottom line is these two videos are full of disinformation and do more harm than good as far as educating people about home networking for music streaming.
You do realize that money-back guarantees defeat marketing propaganda, right?
If you don’t like the products recommended in those videos, I can add lhy-audio.com products to the list, such as the AS6 Pro or AS8Pro+, or even the switch I use - the Paul Pang OCXO Quad Switch (although I am unsure if he is still making these).
This Audiogon-style flat-earth blind passion denouncing things you “believe” is tedious and truly not worth time arguing with. It is an easily confirmed fact that Ethernet switches affect, and can improve, sound quality. The folks at Alpha Audio did a great comparison test here Multitest - The best switch for streaming audio - Alpha Audio , there is also a lengthy companion YouTube video that allows us to hear the differences for ourselves.
My personal experience was similar to theirs, achieving sound quality improvements from the ISP Router, to a basic $50 switch, eventually to a dedicated network composed of quality products designed with the intent of improving the quality of sound systems.
If I hadn’t educated myself to the possibilities combined with the benefit of real-world experiences in my own system, I certainly wouldn’t argue against people doing so for themselves.
My point is simple: if you’re willing to pay thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars for a streaming-based stereo system, I strongly recommend investing in your source equipment, which includes Ethernet switches. The financial risk is near zero if you don’t hear a difference, and the dollars-to-sound-quality ratio can be significant, even for those who have invested only a few thousand into their systems.
Imagine the response you would get from a physicist if you suggested they just try the new antigravity boots that are all the rave on YouTube. That would be me right now. I won’t be wasting everyone’s time and money, even if the cost to me would only be return shipping. Besides, I would loose the advantages of a managed switch, which I clearly explained is my preference in my original post here. If you don’t like arguing, then don’t start an argument when someone expresses a different preference from yours.
