Hi all, newbie here. Looking for some advice. Im demo’ing the MSB lineup next week in cali - as im based in hawaii and we have no dealers or distributors here.
For a setup comprising mcintosh mc451 hybrid amps in bi-amp mode to BW 801d4 sig, would a premier with DD be optimal enough? Shud i try for a reference / select 2 used (budget upto 40-50k). Or save up and budget for a Cascade?
music genres are classic rock, 80-90’s pop (wife) classical and some jazz.
my current dac is weiss 502mk2. Had lumin x1, hifi rose options and also aurender n30sa for streaming source. Its an all digital setup.
Thanks much in advance.
Sam
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Hello Sam and welcome to the MSB world 
i have been using MSB DACs for about four years now. It all started with a Discrete DAC with dual power supply (and almost immediately I added a PRO USB ISL module, in my humble opinion an essential addition to any MSB DAC) and I loved it. Then I had the chance to demo a Reference, and I was mesmerised, but could not afford it back then so after a year or so really enjoying the Discrete I moved on to the Premier. I did enjoy the Premier very much too, and it was a fairly big jump performance wise compared to the Discrete (and by then I had also added an MSB S202 poweramp to my system for total synergy - replacing a Gryphon Essence poweramp and preamp combo - but I could not let go of the sound of the Reference: warmer, bolder, fuller, unforgettable. So, eventually, on year three of my MSB journey, I moved on to the Reference and never looked back: it was and it is my endgame DAC. But, meanwhile, I have also had the chance to demo a Cascade, one of the early prototype units, which was another experience in itself, definitely “another level”. Therefore, if funds will eventually allow, a Cascade may be my next - and last - upgrade. However, even if I should not get a Cascade, I am extremely happy anyway with my Reference: it is an endgame DAC (and I do not even have a DD, which I have heard from other fellow Reference users, does elevate the Reference performance even more). Going Cascade would be the absolute climax, but a Reference DAC is a beautiful performing machine regardless. Enjoy the ride!
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I can’t speak to a direct comparison of the the premiere to cascade. But I have the cascade and it was, initially, and upgrade from a McIntosh MCD12000 DAC (which is quite good) and run on a McIntosh 901’s (the big brother of the amp you have) bi amping Sonus Faber Amati’s. The improvement was stunning. I’ve since upgraded the amp and speakers and it got even better.
On a revealing system, as you have, there is no limit to how “optimal” you can get. So I would say save up for a cascade, if you can.
This is just my IMHO, of course. Demo the cascade along with the other DAC’s and make your decision based on what your own ears tell you at the demo you are going to.
Dan
Having been down this road and owning multiple DACs, including the Premier (it was great). However, I was VERY happy with the upgrade to the Reference and a new Dig Director. BTW, as I understand it, the Weiss DAC is supposed to be very good, so I would wait until you can audition the Reference DAC before jumping ship on what you already have.
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts and advice. I’ve found a premier, a reference and a select on sale online. Hopefully will b able to find a model version my ear would love. Eagerly awaiting next week for the demo.
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Welcome. I have not listened to all the models you are considering, so I can’t help you in that regard. My advice is to consider a Network Renderer input module regardless of which DAC model you chose. It allows you to eliminate a stand alone streamer and the interface between a streamer and the DAC. This cleans up the equipment rack, simplifies use, and optimizes sound quality from a source like Roon. It is a critical piece in my opinion.
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@Drtsskk @Mairet while I like my renderer v2, I am looking to upgrade to an Aurender and the sole reason is Roon (or rather lack of Tidal and Spotify Connect), so while both are great sources they have different capabilities. Sonically the renderer is fantastic. MSB has an amazing trade-up policy that allows you to make small incerments without throwing away 50cents on the dollar but I would agree with @Dan demo the full range and decide what you like and then figure out how to get there, from everything I have read and heard the DD is a significant factor so I would make sure you demo with and without before deciding
Quick update
- Thanks to Tony Probst at AVI san rafael and Vince for making it happen - i demo’ed the cascade with magico, mc205 and innuos statement setup. Separately, i also Trialled the grimm mu2, daniel hertz maria, avm technology etc.
- To me, its a no brainer - the sonic properties of MSB are quite unique. Now im definitely intending to swap out my system progressively to the linear msb lineup -starting w the dac (reference for now) to the amp (m205) and subsequently to the cascade - especially when msb has a great trade in policy for their newer products. I’ll keep my speakers for now and assess later.
- Again, i thank you all for your thoughtful input / advice. Im fortunate to have such avenues to share ideas and experiences.
Peter, i hv the aurender n30sa as well as lumin x1, and the hifi rose line up. Everyone was recommending the innuos, and most of the demos used their statement streamer. Perhaps try that as well as im sold on it, and am Planning to sell my other streamers at this point.
But no Spotify connect.
You are correct that Roon does not have Spotify as an option, but they do have Tidal. I use it through Roon and my Renderer V2.
Fair, but is spotify loseless as good aa expected? My spotify acct is all kids w Kpop - so i havr no idea. Im a local storage plus qobuz guy.
@Drtsskk It’s downright awful, and in my opinion a disappointment but it’s what my wife uses from her phone and watch and thus it’s a mandatory (I currently have a Node X dedicated to Spotify)
No. it’s not actually lossless.
For the Spotify, if you must have it, I’d approach that the same way I approached AirPlay from my Apple TV - Just add a cheap WiiM to the Spdif input on the MSB.
@Drtsskk @matthewk so a blind A/B today with same track on Spotify and Tidal (via Roon) leads to a no comparison when the source is high res, when the source is CD quality on both Tidal wins but by a smaller margin
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Another update and perhaps request is the setup question.
After hearing DCS vivaldi Apex as well, i prefer the smoothness / warmth of msb over the DCS lineup. And fortunately i hv access to the select 2 with the DD which im about to procure. However is there any benefit of switching to the m205 monoblocks over the mc451 mcintosh? I believe they (msb m205) can also be bi-amped however im Not sure of the wiring.
Eventually i will load up to get the cascade as my end point dac but i feel Select would still be a good upgrade over my existing setup. Its the amps that im focusing on next - And am Not sure if the m205 will give enuff juice to the BW801d4S.
Mahalo
M205s are great amps. They will drive any speaker I know of to reasonable listening levels, they only start to struggle a little bit with very low ohm speakers or very high volumes with low efficiency speakers. If you don’t think they will give you enough “juice” the S500 will drive any speaker I know of (including very low efficiency and hard to drive speakers) to ear splitting levels while still being very resolving and delicate.
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Thank u.
Also how do u bi-amp these? Use LF on one speaker outs and HF on the other? Is there a crossover setting?
I would not call it Bi-amped in the case of a monoblock feeding the same signal to both set of binding posts rather bi-wired, normally you have a seperate amp for each of the speaker inputs in a bi-amped configuration.
That being said I have had great experience with bi-wire using the approach you are describing.
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