MSB’s Listening Room Power Configuration?

General
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Hi MSB team,

Would you mind detailing the electricity/power configuration/scheme that you have implemented for you listening room? Specifically, the:

  • gauge, length and model of “romex” used (i) between your main service panel to your isolation transformer breaker panel and (ii) then from your isolation breaker panel to your listening room receptacles. Also whether this is being delivered at 120v vs 240v or a combo thereof and the rationale for choosing one vs the other voltage?

  • the model and kVA of said isolation transformer panel

  • the model of receptacles used in your listening room

  • whether you utilize any additional power conditioning between your listening room receptacles and components? If so what model power conditioner are you using?; and

  • how you have distributed your components across your dedicated listening room circuits? Amp(s) on one or two dedicated circuit while DAC, etc on a separate circuit? If so, do the Cascade DD and PSU share the same circuit or different circuits?

I figure much thought has gone into optimizing the aforementioned at MSB, so understanding the details would be helpful for many of us who seek to optimize the performance of our systems. Speaking for myself, I have attempted to implement as much of Vince’s whitepaper as possible, however, it would be helpful to understand what you all settled on re electricity delivery to your listening room in detail.

Thanks so much!

Blake

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This is my power configuration. Keep in mind that my strategy regarding powering my audio system is belt and suspenders. That is, I am doing everything I can think of to provide clean power for my audio system. I probably don’t need everything I have implemented to get the audio quality that I have in my system. The dimensions mentioned are those used in the USA.

I have three, 20 amp, 12 gauge, 120v home runs to my audio system. A home run is a single wire that goes from a breaker in the breaker panel to the receptacle. In the USA, 12 gauge is the wire size typically used for 20 amp residential circuits. Each run is about 60 feet (ca. 18 m) long.

I could have used 10 gauge (i.e. a larger wire diameter). However, Audioquest recommends not using a wire gauge greater than 12 because, for reasons I don’t understand, it is harder to drain away noise on larger gauge wires.

I am using Audioquest Edison receptacles, AudioQuest NRG Edison 15 Amp Duplex Wall Outlet - 15 Amp . Audioquest mentions plenty of things about how the materials used in their receptacles reduce noise, but the reason I chose them is that the receptacles grab the plug inserted into them with much more force than spec grade, or hospital grade, or residential grade, or big box cheap sockets do. (Spec grade and hospital grade are USA categories of receptacles). Tighter grip means lower resistance as far as I am concerned. Also, the big plugs that audiophile cords tend to work out their way out of other kinds of sockets.

If I hadn’t used Edison receptacles, I would have used Spec grade receptacles. I know a lot of power products taut the use of hospital grade receptacles, but as far as I can tell, there is no actual difference between a Spec grade and a hospital grade reciprocal except for the green dot applied to them. As a matter of information, the green dot means that the entire circuit that the receptacles is on (not just the receptacle) meets the requirements for a receptacle that is near a hospital bed.

Two of the receptacles are connected to Audioquest Niagara 7000 power conditioners. Each power amp is on its own power conditioner and other audio equipment is spread out over those conditioners.

Just a note about the Niagara 7000. A number of my audiophile friends (and me) listened to my system before and after I added the Niagara’s. We all noticed an improvement in sound quality. My friends were very skeptical about me adding a power conditioner to my system… afterall, it’s just AC power :grin:… but, changed their minds after they heard the difference.

The third receptacle is attached to an Audioquest Niagara 5000 power conditioner and is used to power the turntable and phono preamp.

In general, I am using audiophile grade power cords.

Dan

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Right off, I believe @Vince_Galbo should be publishing a wall power document in the “Technical Discussion” section soon. That will be a good resource for others to take a look at as well.

We can publish some more about this, but generally, here are a few notes to consider.

We prefer to run everything on our 220V circuits. Half the amperage and all of our equipment is designed to run with it. This is essentially like doubling the wire guage. Especially helpful when going through power contacts.

I could get you specifics, but nothing we have done is to fine tune/tweak performance. We have an entire machine shop, PCB manufacture line, 300 solar panels on our power mains, in an industrial Ag town… It is a mess. We have 120/220 circuits into the listening room with some passing through an Ultra-K 25 KVA transformer, some not.

We want to test gear in the worst conditions to ensure it only performs better in the field. We want to make sure our transformers won’t hum on dirty power. We don’t use any power conditioners for testing our products. Everything must perform on its own merits.

Alas, I fear, we are not the ones to take inspiration from! We build the car, but trust folks like you to drive it, tune it, and get the most out of it.

@Vince_Galbo has done more work in this regard than any of us at the factory and will be the best resource!

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Thanks, gentlemen. This is helpful feedback. I understand that many of us are working under many constraints when it comes to delivering the cleanest and ample power to our high-end equipment, especially if our efforts in this department were applied after the drywall went up or we lack crawl space between our power service panel and listening room.

This is my (i) power scheme and (ii) the concern therewith described further below:

• 600-amp service from a dedicated pole which feeds six 100-amp breaker panels, of which five are general house panels and one feeds a Torus All-In-One 12kVA isolation transformer wall mounted breaker panel (“AIO”) via a 50-foot 2 or 4 AWG romex wire.

• All noisy devices are on the even numbered AIO breakers (TVs, projectors) and all audio devices (including listening room circuits) on the odd numbered breakers (ie, separate phases). All breakers/circuits are isolated.

• The AIO feeds three dedicated listening room circuits on separate 20-amp 110v breakers that run 125ft via 6AWG romex that has been twisted every 1-2 feet to help block radio frequency interference (per Vince’s whitepaper). These dedicated circuits tie into individual junction boxes in which they are spliced to 7-foot 10AWG cryro’d romex to fit into the terminals of 3 Furutech GTX outlets in the listening room.

• The AIO panel ground piggy backs off the service panel ground. All ground resistance registers WELL below 1 ohm at the service panel, AIO panel, and the listening room outlets.

• One of the three dedicated circuits powers a MSB S202 stereo amplifier while the second feeds a Shunyata Denali power conditioner into which the rest of my components are plugged.

• All romex junctions and connections use silver paste to improve continuity per Vince’s white paper.

All said, this is my concern, of which I would welcome feedback from the electrical engineers on the forum: should I be concerned that the 135-foot length of the three dedicated 6 AWG circuits, running from dedicated breakers in my AIO 12kVA isolation transformer to my listening room receptacles, could be constricting current to my MSB s202 during heavy / dynamic bass tracks? If the answer is YES, what would be the best remedy if the length of these circuits cannot be shortened? By adding some type of power conditioner or isolation transformer in my listening room rack that stores current? If so, which brand/models are worth considering? Alternatively, to the extent possible, should I consider converting two of these 6AWG 110v dedicated circuits to 220v? If so, could one or two 6AWG/2 romex wires be used to deliver 220v?

And FWIW, I have determined that the voltage drop between my AIO panel breakers, and the listening room outlets they power via the 6AWG dedicated circuits, is negligible.

Thanks!

Blake

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Wow, 600 amps is a large service for a residence.

Yes, I’m an EE but I have only indirectly dealt with power systems. I have designed recording studio equipment that needed to be quiet but always had access to another engineer who had a better understanding of power than I did.

These are just my thoughts and represent the way I think about cleaning up power for audio… in the end trust your ears, not me. :slight_smile:

An isolation transformer increases the impedance of the service that the receptacles see. This slows down a receptacle’s response to a change in load. There is just no way the output of an isolation transformer can react as quickly to a change in current demand as direct connection to an electrical service can. Here we are talking about audio dynamics, not kind of change in load that, for example, a light presents when it is turned on.

An isolation transformer will isolate your circuit from what is called common mode noise in your electrical service. However, I’m pretty sure electrical codes require that you have a galvanic connection to the ground the electrical utility uses. That, in itself, can be a source of noise. At the chief engineer at one of the companies I did work for said, “there is no such thing as ground, only returns”. Even in digital circuits electrical noise is a problem a many designers just didn’t realize that one source of that noise is ground.

That 125 feet of Romex on the receptacle side of the iso is a big antenna sucking up RF EMI from everywhere. Since the iso transformer decouples the line from the ground that RF EMI has nowhere else to go except your equipment (not totally true, but in general). To me, it would make more sense to put that Iso in your listening room so you could keep the 120v runs as short as possible.

Some isolation transformers include extra electronics to provide surge protection. This is tricky. Sometimes power line faults will end up producing a very high voltage on a residential service, a few hundred volts above normal. A “whole house” surge protector is works well at protecting against these types of faults.

Another type of fault occurs when lightening hits a power line or a house or even just strikes something near a power line or house. Lightning can induce a very high voltage high current event but only for a very short instant of time. Whole house surge protectors don’t provide much protection against these events. These types of events need surge protectors that are very close to the equipment that needs protection.

In general, an isolation transformer (for 50/60 Hertz power) will pass RF EMI right through to its output. However they can be designed to block the transfer of RF EMI. I know audiophiles use isolation transforms to clean up power and I assume that these iso’s have a built in Faraday shield and drain to block RF EMI.

In the end, because of my stream of consciousness understanding of power and noise, I selected a power conditioner that could be located next to my audio equipment. In my case this is an Audioquest Niagara 7000. So far so good.

And, again, these are just my thoughts. In the real world there are tons of practical circumstance that turns standard practice and theory on its head.

Dan

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Thanks, Dan. Greatly appreciate the time you took to draft and share your thoughts!

Alas, I have 600 amp service and cannot adequately power a 200 watt stereo amplifier!

The AIO was designed for recording studios, but to your point and others, the romex runs are too long and are likely picking up noise because of that. And, because the AIO is the home run / power source for numerous audio and video devices around the house, it cannot be moved. It’s not designed to sit on a rack. It’s a 350lbs wall mounted breaker panel with a large isolation transformer.

I’ll have to consider a way to tie my dedicated listening room circuits into a sub panel fed by the main service panel (and bypass the AIO). This will be a project. But even if I can bypass the AIO, the romex runs will continue to be very, very long given how far the main service panel is to the listening room. They could easily be 150 feet long after accounting for the indirect routing. All to say, it would be a helluva lot more compelling to take on this project if I was guaranteed a marked improvement in sound!

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…since the devil (and the danger) is in the details, I’m not recommending a solution per se, but if your situation (and experience) allows, you could run an “extension” cord the 150’ to test the outcome. Just laid along the wall on the floor, etc.

Maybe #6 or #8 triplex tied into the box (safely, with appropriate box, outlet, etc.), and a 4-gang box or two to plug in the gear at the other end?

Still a bit pricey with 150’ of cable, but without the various hassles of running it in the real pathway. I suppose you could pull some THHN wire in FMC or smurf-tube too, although no idea of relative price.

Just spit-balling with you, but I have done this for demos, and it’s (to me) not a huge project. Good Luck!

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Hi Blake,

Good luck on your project, I’m sure you will find a way to get the audio quality you want!

Interestingly enough, the total weight of my three Audioquest power conditioners is about 250 lb, not quite the weight of your AIO, but getting up there.

Dan

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Thanks, Markus. That sounds like a reasonably good and cost effective way to verify whether the juice would be worth the squeeze. Any thoughts on what gauge of extension cord would be adequate?

Appreciated,
Blake

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…you won’t be able to land anything larger than 10ga. into a duplex (and even that is a PITA), so for the experiment, you’ll probably end up with an old drier or range “outlet” or a small panel, if that’s part of the longer-range plan.

That Smurf tubing is light and easy to use for an experimental snake, but would it work for the final application? If not, you’d have “duplicate” cost for whatever would be appropriate choice.

Probably a roll of 6 ga. copper tri-plex, if we still call it that, would be best. You can check or have your electrician advise on voltage drop over 150 feet. Probably want to keep it below 3%. Maybe some of the EE honchos on the thread will chime in. Again, in all circumstances, be safe even for a test set-up.

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My Wall Power/Dedicated line paper is posted now. Please ask any questions. Be sure to have any work done by a licensed electrician. There are lethal voltages involved. DO NOT attempt to do this work yourself.

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Thanks, gentlemen. Conveniently, last winter I had an electrician install an outlet only 2-3 feet away from the main service panel. While this outlet is on a dedicated breaker in a subpanel that powers various appliances, outlets, etc. throughout the house, and admittedly apt to pick up some noise from the devices being powered by other beakers on this subpanel, it will be very easy for me to plug a 10-gauge extension cord into said outlet to create the test circuit Markus has recommended. If the test circuit improves the sound, I’ll be emboldened to spend some $s to re-route my dedicated listening room circuits to the main service panel. Speaking of which, to the extent I do, it would be easier for me to implement by running a single 100+ foot 1-2AWG wire from main service panel to a subpanel in the crawl space directly beneath my listening room outlets, from which this subpanel would power said outlets with 5-6 foot dedicated circuits as opposed to placing the subpanel near my main service panel and running three 100+ foot long dedicated circuits to said listening room outlets. Do folks have an opinion on what implementation (former vs. latter) would yield the best result?

Thanks!

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I prefer the larger gauge long run with the shorter “local” circuits. And best to talk with local electrician re: crawl space location. There are code definitions regarding panel locations, minimal clearances, etc.

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Hi all,

Following up on my last posting above. I ran the experiment that Markus suggested which entailed running a 150’ 10AWG extension cord from a 20 amp breaker in a sub panel that is no more than a foot from the main service panel. I could discern an immediate improvement in sound quality. Attack was much more palpable, pronounced and extended. Presentation was more coherent and tempo seemed faster and coordinated among instruments. Based on this result, next step will be for me to hire an electrician to explore the path of least resistance to pull single or double runs of 1AWG “romex” from my main service panel to a sub panel mounted at my living room. These runs will likely be 150-175ft each. For those who know, if I desire to take advantage of MSB amps’ ability to accept 220v, how this is best implemented? I assume that this will require a 220v power cord (I assume most name brand cable manufacturers offer 220v models?) As far as the sub panel at the listening room is is concerned, if I have three dedicated circuits therein to power three dedicated listening room outlets, if the sub panel “line in” is 220v, I assume that said dedicated circuits could be a combination of 220v (for amp(s)) and 110v (power conditioner)? Lastly, regarding the amperage rating of the breaker in the main service panel feeding the listening room sub panel via a 1AWG circuit(s), what size breaker should be adequate? 50A or 100A?

Grateful for forum member’s input!

Blake

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I picked up the Greenwave noise meter (from Amazon) that @Vince_Galbo suggested and used it to do some measurements.

I’ve two conclusions from doing these measurements. Home runs reduce the noise coming from a receptacle and I understand, now, why adding the Audioquest conditioners improved my system.

Here are the details.

I have 3, 120v home runs on the “HiFi” wall in my listening room. One on the left, one in the middle, and one on the right. Here is the noise measurements from these receptacles.

Left Receptacle: 514 mV noise
Middle Receptacle: 883 mV noise
Right Receptacle: 375 mV noise

Each home run has an Audioquest Niagara power conditioner plugged into it. Each conditioner has two sets of output receptacles in it. One, the amplifier set, is for high, varying, no limit current output(for amplifiers), and the other, non-Amplifier, set is for constant power is limited to 5 amps per receptacle (non-amplifier equipment, like preamps).

Left Niagara (has left M500 plugged into it).
Amplifier receptacles: 320 mV noise
Non-Amplifier receptacles: 29 mV noise

Center Niagara (phono pre-amp/turntable) plugged into it).
Amplifier receptacles (not used): 261 mV noise
Non-Amplifier receptacles: 25 mV noise

Right Niagara (has right M500 plugged into it).
Amplifier receptacles: 308 mV noise
Non-Amplifier receptacles: 33 mV noise

So the noise on the non-amplifier receptacles is basically nonexistent.

On the amplifier receptacles, the noise is not being reduced much. Audioquest does have some tech for reducing the noise on the amplifier receptacles, but I’m not sure how much an unlimited current receptacle can be quieted. The Audioquest amplifier receptacles, besides being unlimited, will provide 90 amps of current for 25 ms, if it is needed. So these receptacles are “beyond” unlimited. :slight_smile:

The M500’s have a huge amount of capacitance in, so my guess is that this much noise is not an issue. Also, and this is just what I think, noise on power for things like pre-amps/DACs is much more of an issue than it is for power for amplifiers.

There certainly no audible noise in my system. My audiophile friends (and me) find things like detail and sound stage spectacular. But, of course, a system can sound spectacular until you hear another one that is more spectacular.

I also measured some other receptacles in my house, just to get a feel for the noise level in a non-home run receptacle. Most pegged the Greenwave with over 1000mV of noise.

Dan

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Very interesting :thinking:

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Hi Dan,

In regards to your posting detailing your wiring scheme, do your home runs tie back to breakers in a (i) subpanel that that is dedicated exclusively to your listening room circuits or (ii) your home’s service panel?

Thanks,
Blake

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They go back to my main breaker panel, along with all the other house circuits. I have no subpanels. I doubt using a subpanel would make any difference. The subpanel neutral would have to be bonded to the main panel. So would the ground, only the main panel can be connected directly to the service ground.

In other words any noise on my regular house circuits would have a path to my home runs, either within the main breaker box or through the cable to the subpanel. Same length either way.

If you have an Audioquest dealer in your area they may let you trial a Niagara 7000. When I added the Niagara I, and a number of my audiophile friends, noticed an immediate improvement in detail and soundstage. Not as much of a change as when I added the Cascade, but still very noticeable.

Dan

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Thanks, Dan. Very happy that you’re happy with your wiring, your system sounds great and you can focus on the music!

I would like to demo the Niagara.

Per my earlier posting, I am exploring ways to bypass my Torus AIO breaker panel so that my listening room outlets can pull directly from my main service panel. Your being a EE, I wanted to bounce this potential solution off you?

  • inserting a subpanel before the AIO on the 240v 100A circuit currently feeding the AIO from the main service panel? This subpanel would have two circuits: (i) one 1AWG 220/240v circuit providing power to a subpanel near my listening room that delivers power to my listening room outlets and (ii) one 1AWG 220/240v circuit providing power to the AIO breaker panel. While the AIO breaker panel and and listening room subpanel would be sharing the same 100A circuit, the listening room outlets would bypass the AIO.
  • The solution above would likely be easier and less costly to implement (a lot less sheetrock demo) han running a dedicated 1AWG circuit directly from the main service panel to a listening room subpanel.

Thanks,
Blake

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Hi Blake,

I wish I could tell you what you propose will be the best way to connect your audio equipment. What you are trying to do is one of those things where no amount of analysis will give you the best answer, there are just too many unknowns, specifics unique to your house and town, and other variables.

For me, I would go for the most simple and do my home runs from the main entry panel, even if they were long. All runs end up, in effect, going through the main entry panel anyhow and this would give you the shortest amount of wire and smallest number of connections between the receptacle and the supply your utility provides.

You did a test with a long extension cord. Do some more by plugging that extension cord into some of the regular receptacles around your house. Do some listening tests. You might find out that it is the long extension cord that is cleaning up the noise. If that does clean up the noise that would tell you that it doesn’t matter where the home run originates, it only matters that it is long.

Good luck,
Dan