Welcome to the forum and thanks for the comment. It is an interesting suggestion indeed. From what we see, room correction through digital processing finds its best strengths on the flip side of uber high end audio. This is why it is common on smart speakers etc. Really impressive engineering there. These types of processing can definitely improve the performance of certain DAC’s and certain rooms, but it comes as a trade off. A “slight” compromise in a certain aspect can be easily overlooked for big gains in another area. This is a great thing to have if needed. To be clear, I think it has a time and place, and may make more sense for some people depending on listening priorities as well.
As we push the ultra high end, we have less tolerance for any degradation of deviation to the original sound. The expectation becomes fixing the room, power mains, and gear etc for best performance. There is simply no room to budge from that mission.
@Dan
I tend to agree with you about not adding a room correction function in any of the MSB DACs but I am coming to the same conclusion from a totally different point if view.
First, it will add cost for people who do not need the feature or already have it (my case). No need to add additional burden to the price with a function that the majority of us would not necessarily use.
Second, companies have to design, offer and deliver products where they are the Best. Not inferring here that MSB could not design a room correction system but it is super complex. Trinnov excels at room correction. There founders are mathematicians.
Room correction tends to go with filtering functions. I have three systems, 2 stereo and one HC in 4.0. All front speakers are either two way active or three way active ones requiring filtering. Trinnov does both room correction and filtering. And more. So my point here is leave those functions to guys who have already invested lots of R&D and have excellent products. I would not imagine acquiring another DAC than an MSB one.
Third, room correction may create a loss due to the chain : ADC then room correction then digital to analog conversion, but it is unnoticeable. I had a psychological barrier which has totally vanished after I tested at home. The benefits outweigh by far any potential inconvenience.
This was a digression about room correction but let’s come back to the Sentinel discussion.
Cheers
Thank you for the warm welcome and for your reply to my question.
I’m not surprised that adding a feature such as room correction to a DAC will be a trade off/compromise; it would inevitably involve adding hard- and/or software to the system that will also have its repercussions elsewhere in the DAC
So, after your clear explanation, it makes perfect sense why you guys make the design choices that you do. Thank you very much for the explanation.
Also thanks to @Abascal for chiming in;
Interesting to see that room correction can also be applied effectively after the DA conversion.
The Lyngdorf TDA 3400 is a great all in one machine, and having played with multiple Lyngdorf products in the past, they are the best in their class. Loved the RP1 in my system years ago.
Moving up to the level of Cascade and Sentinel (and even at Discrete and Premier level) I believe it is important to also look at the acoustics of the room and not just use electronics to deal with this.
Lowering the reverb time in the room and adding diffusion helps the imaging and system performance. Crucial is also placement of speakers and the interaction they have with the room.
I understand not everyone wants acoustic treatment in their room… definitely not ugly foam mats ;-)… but interesting to look at, is that improved room acoustics also improve daily living conditions.
@Dan I do like your idea about the bitcoing mining… I have tried the Roon DSP yet find it less musical…yes it can solve problems… but there is a musical downside that makes the MSB sound average instead of exceptional.
Thanks all for adding your idea’s … great to learn how people think and use their gear.
Interestingly enough my McIntosh MX180 AVP has Lyngdorf sound correction built into it.
The “Adventures in Audio” quest I am embarking on now is improving my room acoustics… I know there are tons of vendors who do this sort of thing, but me, being me, I have to do it myself.
It’s a great adventure to embark on… the challenge of DIY is to predict how it will affect the sound and how much you need… and diffusors with hollow backsides may become unwanted Helmholz resonators… look up Artnovion product for idea’s. They are developed with real engineering behind them.
As a former Lyngdorf user, how would you describe the change and improvement in sound when transitioning to MSB’s products? And to ‘level the playing field’ room-treatment-wise, what room-treatment are you using with your MSB gear?
(Unfortunately, I have not yet had the chance to hear any of MSB’s gear.)
And @Dan, as you are busy with treating your room, you might want to check out the active bass traps by PSI audio.
@Daniel_Francis, please pretend you’re Santa, and “leak” more information on the Sentinel DAC and Sentinel mono block amplifier - it’s been over three months since the last update!
For me the MSB gear is all about musical flow. To describe this i use an analogy with musicians (being a amateur musician myself i can relate to that the best)
Amateur musicians often play notes. they start and stop almost at the same time and in between the notes there is no real silence. the dynamic range of amateur orchestra’s is often limited to mezzo forte to a loud forte… and the musical lines aren’t always there.
Then you go to a good semi pro orchestra where you have pro musicians but they are often called in to play, they have 2 rehearsals and play a concert. They start and stop together, they make better dynamics but the musical lines aren’t homogenous. It is technically correct.
Then you have orchestra’s like Chicago Symphony, LSO, Berliner, Vienna. The top ranking orchestra’s. Because they play together all the time and they are all top musicians and craftsmen (and ladies) on their individual instrument the music flows, the silence between the notes is really there and the dynamics are from very very quiet to tripple forte that can shake a room. The musical lines frow between the different instrument groups and the harmonic overtones are all there.
The latter category is MSB to me, the middle one is most other digital products.
Acoustic treatment in my room is all Artnovion. These products are first of all good looking and secondly they are technically performing correctly. If I do measurements and add Xm2 of their panels, the after measurement matches my predictions with the calculator I use (NTI XL2 )
The PSI Active bass traps are indeed great. I do prefer the C20 above the 2.14…
Thank you very much for your enlightening reply. Having listened to both semi-pro and pro orchestreert/bands/artists alike, I get the distinctions you make. Based on what you told us, I am now very interested in hearing what an MSB system can do, as my own humble system already has a good amount of flow, dynamics and harmonic overtones and I’m wondering how far such things can be pushed.
Thanks also for introducing me to Artnovion. I didn’t know about them yet and, like you say, besides giving good acoustics, looks are also important for a place you are going to spend significant amounts of time in. ;o)
@Dan I agree with you, but to spare everyone my overlong explanation and just to the coles notes version (in several blind tests) almost everyone found the native sound of the cascade based system flowed better than the corrected version (ARC, DIRAC, Muse, etc.)
At the end of the day it’s not perfect as my space has a LOT of reflective surface so in some ranges it’s a bit bright, but still simply amazing!
I have tried the Roon DSP yet find it less musical…yes it can solve problems… but there is a musical downside that makes the MSB sound average instead of exceptional.
