I am about to hit the trigger for Premiere+DD +s500 to drüve my Estelon X Diamond SE. I know msb is great for volume control but in some reviews and forum topics i read the digital volume control is not good as reference or cascade. It is digital so you need to have -98db or 100 minimum not to loose resolution. Otherwise at low volumes it is thin and bodyless.
What do you feel about that?
Best
Ahmed
The Discrete and Premier both use a form of digital volume control. It is not a normal digital volume used on playback software, it is much much better because it interacts directly with the DAC modules in the best way possible. I find it has virtually no degradation for about 10db ( down to a setting of 90) a very slight effect to 20db (down to 80) then a very gradual degradation below that. So the volume works best if most of your listening occurs from 80-100.
The fully analog (constant impedance passive) volume control of the Cascade is optimal for all volume settings.
Thank you Dustin. So if i understand right, to be in a range of 80-100 is the safe bet. Which is very restrictive. Today or another i will find myself looking for a pre amp in between. Msb do not have a preamp so i will need to find a matching one for s500
So i think, i either must buy a better dac today from msb and don’t look for a pre for s500 or buy another brand’s pre power to use with msb premier.
Best
Hi there,
in Munich we have demonstrated with the premier dac + DD and S202.
The S500 has impedance and gain setting to optimise the performance and also adapting to the efficiency of the speaker.
I thing you should try it first before making too much thought about it.
Important it to use a good interconnect that doesn’t limit the performance ( i’ve been using Ikigai audio Kinzan with this combination with very good results.
Enjoy the music
Thanks Frank tomorrow i will try it with both kubala sosna, valhalla 2 , odin and tara labs. Let’s se 
In your search for the perfect cable, while it’s an unconventional recommendation, and certainly less expensive than many, I’d not skip the Shunyata Theta. I have been quite surprised with their price/performance in my Cascade - s500 - Magico s5 system.
Hi Dustin. Can you explain what happens when you turn the Discrete/Premier up past 100? I understand there is some form of digital clipping. I always wondered why this feature was there, and why there wasn’t a way to disable it.
The output of the DAC can swing 3.5v+. Most amplifiers have a full power sensitivity of less than 2v. So when you use a DAC as the preamp the amplifier will always clip first. However some recordings are recorded with too small a signal level. Settings over 100 add gain ( the signal will still clip at the amplifiers sensitivity first or the DAC will clip first at 3.5v in the rare condition the amp has more than a 3.5v input sensitivity) for those recordings that are low in level.
When you use the DAC as a preamp this is the ideal behavior. If you use an external preamp then set the volume off mode or a volume setting of 100 or less.
My amplifiers have 26db of gain, so I use the low output setting in my Discrete DAC. My amplifiers will still clip first with a maximum voltage of 1.785 from the DAC in this configuration. My amplifiers measure 150, 240, 380 watts RMS into 8, 4, 2 ohms respectively. However, I know I am no where near those power levels when I am wanting to turn the volume up past 100. My amplifiers have meters showing the current through the power supplies, and they almost never move. That means I am not exceeding the Class A bias current, which would occur at 60, 30, 15 watts RMS. A sound pressure meter at my listening position and some math confirms I am not exceeding about 20 watts. These recordings must be ones at very low levels as you described. Am I correct in assuming that there are probably all zeros in the most significant bits of these recordings, and that turning the volume up past 100 is most likely just throwing some of these high order zeros away?
If your amp clips at 1.79v then freely use the volume past 100. It is impossible for the DAC to be the limiting element in your case as it will clip past 3.5V. That is what the digital gain is for, recordings that are quiet. There is no drawback, you will not lose resolution at all.
I am not sure this is a clipping problem. It doesn’t metter which gain of the amp you are using or whatever volume you are listening it happens.
Sorry for all the questions Dustin. I generally like to understand things. In this case I am about to replace my amplifiers, so I really want to understand this topic and I must have something wrong in my mind.
First, the Discrete DAC spec sheet says it is capable of 3.57 volts RMS. I assume it will only produce half that voltage when the Low Output option is selected in the setup menus. Is this correct?
Second, I assume 100 is the only volume setting which will result in all 24 bits of a high resolution recording being used, I assume lower volume settings will disregard information from lower order bits, and higher settings will disregard information from higher order bits. Although the algorithm may be more sophisticated than I am implying, is this assumption fundamentally correct?
Note I don’t think digital volume control truncating is bad. The part of the 144db of dynamic range lost when turning the volume down is already below the noise floor of most systems, rooms, and human hearing. Turning the volume up probably means a low level recording that has a bunch of zeros in the high order bits, so no real loss. I believe other issues introduced by most preamps are worse than these consequences.
I may have more questions, but I want to make sure I have the first two questions correct in my mind before proceeding. Thanks for your patience.
This is how to think of it, when reducing volume using a digital volume control you are using less than the full dynamic range of the DAC. Say your DAC has 100db of dynamic range and you perfectly attenuate the digital signal before the DAC by 10db now your DAC has 90db of dynamic range. When you increase the volume digitally your DAC maintains its 100db of dynamic range but now has another problem, the DAC may clip if asked to reproduce too large a signal. That clipping is no worse than an amp clipping( much better actually, because a DAC recovers from clipping on the first non clipped sample, but an amp takes time to recover). So if the amp will clip first before the DAC then it is entirely the Amp that is the limiting factor. If they would both clip at the same time then the amp is still the limiting factor (A clipping DAC is way more benign than a clipping amp). If you want more volume than your amp can output then you need an amp with more power or tolerate its clipping. It is irrelevant that the DAC may clip if the amp will clip first or at the same time as your amp.
So if you are using the DAC as a preamp and it would clip at the same or higher voltage than your amp then you can freely use whatever digital gain you wish to get the volume you want. If your amp clips, then it would clip exactly as if you were using any other preamp. If that is a problem it is a problem that you don’t have enough amplifier power not that the DAC might clip.
If you are using low gain then your DAC will clip at 1.786v exactly which you stated is still more than the full power input sensitivity of your amp, so your amp will still always clip first, meaning the DAC will never be the limiting factor is your setup, no matter what gain setting you use, it doesn’t matter is you set a volume setting of 106 on any playback file. The amp will still clip first so it is irrelevant if the DAC would also clip (at a higher level) on that file.
With volume settings above 100 they only detrimental if you are using an external preamp, because you may clip the DAC, then attenuate that clipped signal with the external preamp. In that case a signal that would not have clipped at your listening level will be clipped. So when using an external preamp or volume control then set the DAC to 100 or lower to exclude that fault condition.
Thank you for the explanation Dustin. Your original advice in this thread was the digital volume control works best if most of your listening occurs between 80 and 100. What are your thoughts on using passive XLR attenuators at the amplifier end of the cable between the DAC and amplifier in order to achieve this volume setting range of 80-100? (Assuming low output mode is already selected.) I guess either passive analog or digital attenuation will reduce the dynamic range at the amplifier input. Do you see an advantage either way? Do you have anny other advice on how to achieve the 80-100 range?
I use 10db attenuation between the tubed pre-amp and my monoblock amps.
My speakers are 95db, and I was using the first 20% of my volume dial, despite using fixed, low output from the DAC. I should get the Pre-Amp to the manufacturer for lowering the gain (changing a few resistors)
It is cheap to obtain attenuators, and test them in your system.
I have one more question on this subject Dustin. Does the Discrete DAC have the same dynamic range in both low and high output mode?
So Dustin can we say that Premier with s500 will safely be used around 80-106 db with full resolution ? (Ofcourse whicever gain level of your s500 to maintain this with your speakers sensitivity.)
But why is the low volume performance like 60-70 is not good as ordinary analog pre amps? Is it becouse of digital volume kontrol limits?
What is the minimum volume level the resolution is starting to max? Like 60-70 is safe?
Hi Agencal,
I will offer you my understanding. You will loose some of what you call resolution any time your volume control is not at 100, but that is not necessarily as bad as you might think it is.
When you turn the volume down from 100, you are loosing the quietest parts of the music. This is not a big deal as long as your gains are set up well because most home listening environments have at least 40db of ambient noise. So these quiet parts of the music would be lost anyway in the ambient noise of the room even if they were not lost to digital attenuation. For example, my volume control is often as low as 60 when I just have some background music on. The music is only about 20db above the room noise, so it is OK that my DAC’s dynamic range has been reduced to about 60db.
When you turn the volume up past 100, this could be either OK or bad depending on the digital recording being played. If the recording is actually using the full dynamic range available in the digital file, then you would be loosing the loudest parts of the music. This is what I understand Dustin called DAC clipping. However, you are probably not going to want to turn the volume up past 100 if your gains are set up well and the recording is so loud. A handheld SPL meter is useful for verifying that a particular recording is quieter than normal. Turning the volume up past 100 when playing a quiet recording is probably OK. The parts of the recording that could contain loud music are empty, so they can be lost with no consequences.
So what do I mean by well set up gains. You want the least amount of gain that allows you to play one of your quieter recordings as loud as you want while staying at or just below 100 on the volume control. For me, this results in a usable range of 60-100 while always having a dynamic range that extends below the noise floor of my listening room. A hand held SPL meter is very useful for set up as well as keeping volumes hearing safe while listening.
I personally don’t like the idea of turning the volume up past 100 and I wish this could be disabled in the DAC menus.