hi
i have an opportunity to go for orpheus lab amplifiers to replace my m205 amps.
what do you think about using the cascade pre with the orpheus amplifiers?
the orpheus preamp is expensive.
thank you
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I question what the preamp (any preamp) would add. It certainly cannot make the output from the Cascade DAC more pure or transparent. In my experience separate linestage preamps apply in one of two use cases. One, you have analog sources and need the extra gain for your amp/speaker/room combination. Two, you can’t handle the truth of what your recordings sound like and wish to sugar coat every single one of them. Nothing wrong with that approach since the experience of listening to music is subjective.
A linestage has four functions…signal amplification, volume control, source switching, and impedance matching. The Cascade can provide the volume control, signal amplification, and source switching (within some limits) but likely not impedance matching. I think if you have MSB amplification the impedance matching wouldn’t be required. With other amplification, impedance matching of separate linestage may provide benefits.
The output impedance of the Cascade is very low. Even low input impedance power amp’s aren’t a problem. Moreover, the Cascade, Sentinel, Select and Reference DACs have constant impedance at all volume levels. As for analog sources, some vacuum tube phono preamps with unusually high output impedance may run into issues of high frequency roll off but that is true with most modern solid state preamps on the market. A well designed solid state phono preamp will likely already have a very low output impedance. Other than acting as a one size fits all tone control, I am not sure what a separate preamp can add to the pure output of the MSB DAC modules or a well designed phono preamp, assuming sufficient gain of the latter with one’s choice of cartridge and amplifier/speaker/room.
I won’t argue the technical elegance of the MSB products — their engineering, signal purity, impedance matching, and overall execution are exceptional. I love what MSB does.
That said, theoretical technical perfection is not necessarily the end goal. The ultimate objective for most of us is achieving sound that is emotionally convincing and personally engaging in our own systems and rooms.
Well-designed, properly matched preamplifiers can absolutely contribute to that outcome. One can dismiss them as “tone controls” if desired, but disregarding them entirely seems unnecessarily rigid.
My experience with the Premier, as well as another DAC employing analog volume control, has been that high-quality preamps do not simply alter tonal balance. Rather, they can materially change spatial presentation and perceived perspective within the venue.
Running the DAC directly into the amplifiers tends to place me in the front rows — more immediate, more explicit, more forward. Introducing a high-quality preamp shifts the presentation farther back into the hall, creating a more relaxed and immersive sense of space.
Neither presentation is inherently right or wrong. They are simply different interpretations of the musical event, and personal preference will determine which feels more convincing to a given listener
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@crwilli 100% agree.
The Premier volume control is not equivalent to that in the Reference, Select, Cascade and Sentinel.
If a preamp changes the sound of the pure output of the MSB DAC modules then that is a distortion or colouration. If one likes that added to every single recording then no one can argue with the subjective experience.
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So assured of yourself. Live long and prosper.
Yes, the Sentinel preamp is the best, followed by the Cascade, then the Select and Reference. These are all purely passive, constant impedance relay based preamps. The Select and Reference are “gen 1” the Cascade is “gen 2” and the Sentinel is the best I could design. The Premier and Discrete are totally different, they are digital based. The best digital I know how to do which is much better than that done by any computer, but digital nonetheless.
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I think reasons for independent preamp mostly fall into three categories: functional, performance, and aesthetic.
Functional reasons include analog input (if you have vinyl) and multiple outputs (if you have both speaker and headphone). These are hard ones for Discrete/Premier. Cascade eliminates the first but not second (it still has only 1 analog output). Sentinel seems to have eliminated both.
Performance reasons include desire for pure analog volume control, impedance matching. These, again, apply to Discrete/Premier. But generally they do not quite apply to Cascade or Sentinel as it has pure passive analog volume control and very low output impedance.
Aesthetic reasons are largely your personal preference. Some preamp, like Accuphase, can add a touch of their house sound, timbre, or soundstage features. These are your call.
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I tried to drive my M500 directly with Select II. I like the SQ better after inserting a Vitus preamp in the chain.
100% agree, My friends and I have also done many similar comparisons.If we have higher aspirations, it seems there’s no way to save money on the pre - amplifier.
thank you for your comments.
i will listen with the cascade pre first and decide later if i need external preamp