Pro USB added to Cascade

[Dan]

I just installed Pro USB between my Nucleus Titan and Cascade. No surprise, of course, playing DSD512 over 4 meters of fiber works great! Easy-peasy install. Some orchestral things seem to sound better, but I’ve only been listening for a half-hour or so.

I’m using a WIreWorld Platinum Starlight 8 USB cable to connect to the input module.

I needed the distance in my current setup and I wanted more isolation. I think I got better sound too… we’ll see.

I think this is a great option for the Cascade.

Dan

[Daniel_Gullman]

Nice, keep us posted as you give it more listening.

[Dan]

Thanks Daniel,

I expect it to improve even more when my M500 mono blocks arrive

Dan

[jvvita]

And how are you getting to dsd 512? Via roon or hqplayer?

[Dan]

I have a couple of NativeDSD tracks that are DSD512. I also had Roon upsample some tracks to DSD512. Both worked without any issues.

Note that with the Cascade you should not upsample or otherwise change the bits. The Cascade, as far as I can tell, does the best processing of a digital signal… any changes you do to it before the Cascade have a good chance to make it worse, not better.

Also, IHMO, when you buy DSF tracks, for example from NativeDSD, you should always buy the DSD level the track was recorded at. NativeDSD has a lot of tracks that were recorded at DSD256.

If you find a track the was recorded at DSD64, buy that track not a higher resolution. NativeDSD (an others) use HQPlayer Pro (or some other software) to make the higher resolution versions that they sell.

I just did the DSD512 thing just to see if it worked.

All this IMHO of course. If your ears tell you otherwise, then trust your ears.

Dan

[jvvita]

Thanks for the reply. I have always been a heavy user of hqplayer. But I figured that the digital director would do its thing most probably better

[Daniel_Gullman]

Hey @Dan ! I just saw your order come through for a lead time check. Stock is good! I had production get started already, should be ready to go next week.

Very exciting! Those paired with the Cascade should be MAGIC! Thank you!

[Dan]

Hi @Daniel_Gullman

Wahoo!!

The Cascade is pretty magic already. The M500’s will take it to a level that will make Harry Potter jealous

Can’t wait!

Thanks for the update.
Dan

[jvvita]

Hello, I could not the DSD512 to work with my usb pro. I connected to a windows with the asio driver, and to a linux machine. Both to no avail. Roon does not even give me the option of DSD512, stopping at DSD256. Did you do some special configuration?

[Dan]

I using a Roon Nucleus Titan which is a Linux system customized by Roon. I have it set up to use Native DSD as the way to transfer DSD data. This is how it is setup in Room (under settings, audio… the Cascade seems to broadcast itself as a Select DAC). I think if you set it up as the transfer method for DSD as DoP (DSD over PCM) it will not let you select DSD greater than DSD256, so having Native DSD on the Roon configuration is important.

When I’m playing a DSD512 track Roon shows the data be transferred as is, and not processed.

So I didn’t I anything special to set it up. The Cascade displays that it is playing “512x DSD”. Note that the Roon site does not yet list the Cascade as being Roon Tested or Ready, but because the Cascade broadcasts itself as a Select DAC it works anyhow. I’ve used the Cascade both via the Network (i.e Roon RAAT protocol, using the MSB Renderer) and USB and works just fine. Note that the Render only supports up to DSD256.

[Dan]

I should add that I played some DSD512 tracks just to see if I could, but I don’t intend to buy DSD512 tracks unless the original session was recorded at DSD512, or to upscale anything to DSD512. So far, and I haven’t done enough listening yet to be definitive, I don’t think upscaling tracks to DSD 512 is needed, or even desirable, for the Cascade. Unless can find out otherwise by listening I will buy and play tracks in their recorded resolution when possible. I don’t know what Cascade is doing to the bits that are sent to it but it seems magical.

[jvvita]

Tx. That is weird. You are playing dsd in native format (not DoP). That is exactly what did not work out for me. Maybe @Daniel_Gullman may clarify for us.

[Dan]

On your Roon server… you can check to make sure Muse isn’t getting in the way. Headroom management and sample rate conversion should be turned off. All filters should be disabled. Any of these items might kick off extra processing for your Roon server system and push it over the edge when it tries to process DSD512.

You get to Muse via the little speaker icon and the squiqly line.

Also even though the Nucleus that I have is a Linux system, it has been stripped down to just what is needed to run the Roon server software. So there are no un-needed daemons running or other app’s doing background tasks.

If are any app’s or other stuff, besides the Roon server software, even the Roon client software, on your system they will be grabbing CPU cycles that the Roon server might need to process DSD512. So if you can shut down any un-need apps on the system it may get DSD512 working.

Also, and I think you already pointed this out, I don’t think DoP can do DSD512, you need native DSD for that to work. I had another DAC before Cascade and it could only do DoP and I was never able to get DSD512 to work in it, even when I tried to fool it into processing NativeDSD. In fact on occasion it had trouble with DSD256.

Dan

[jvvita]

Thanks for the detailed post and your kindness to help reach a solution.

I was playing in bit perfect, so no Muse in the way. My suspicion lies in DoP. What intrigues me is why direct dad locked up the DD.

[Henrik_Berg]

Do you have a plan to get a High end streamer over time ?

[Dan]

Right now I do have an Aurender N20 on trial. However, for my purposes so far, I haven’t found it any better than my Roon Nucleus Titan. But my use cases might be different than many.

One of the things the N20 can do is send SPDIF data sync’d to the Cascade clock. The Cascade has a Word clock output that is connected to the Word clock input of the N20. This is a good thing in general but SPDIF is limited to DSD64. NativeDSD has many albums recorded at DSD256.

Another thing the N20 can do is cache the audio bits so it can do a better job of clocking. As far as I can tell the Cascade is already caching the audio bits.

The N20 also has an isolated USB output that can do up to DSD512. Isolating the USB minimizes the extraneous noise it might inject not the Cascade. But is doesn’t isolate the USB as much is the Pro USB fiber module does.

Even so, if I am going to use the USB output for my DSD256 tracks why not use it for everything? I’ve been told that Word clocked SPDIF is superior to USB, but I haven’t heard that myself.

However at the moment my McIntosh MC901s are incapacitated so I am using some channels from my surround amp to drive my speakers. So I can’t really do a listening test until I my M500s arrive.

The N20 has some features that I wouldn’t use. For example, it will re-sample DSD to PCM so it can be sent of a SPDIF connection. In general I don’t want anything changing the source bits, The Cascasde seems to do incredibly well, even with Red Book CD rates.

The thing about the Cascade is that there is no reason to upsample a stream. if what you have is ia a Redbook CD track, send that to the Cascade, don’t bother upsampling it first. At least that’s what I have found so far, but I only had short time listening to the Cascade.

The screen on the N20 is nice, but especially for classical music, I like the Roon display on an iPad much better.

Your milage may vary but I greatly prefer the Roon interface over the Aurender Conductor use interface. Maybe after I work with the Conductor interface for a while I’ll change my mind, but I doubt it.

All I need from a streamer is for it to grab tracks from, for example, Qobuz and send them to Cascade without acting like noise source. So the Roon Titan + ProUSB is perfect for my needs. Maybe after my M500s arrive and I and I can do some comparisons between the Titan and N20 I’ll change my mind, but so far I don’t think that will happen.

Again, these are just my opinions, your milage my vary…

Dan

[Battles]

Hi Dan,

Will be very interested in your N20 vs Roon Nucleus Titan comparison. I currently own an N30SA (previously had streamed Roon from a QNAP server via my Select’s Renderer module; now via Pro USB from my N30SA) but would gladly sell my N30SA, Gobel USB cable, etc to defray the cost of the Select > Cascade upgrade if the Cascade stack now renders the sonic benefits of the N30SA moot.

If others on the forum have compared whether a high end audio server offers “noticeable or any” sonic benefits with a Cascade stack in the signal path, I’d welcome your feedback!

Thanks,
Blake

[Dan]

Hi Blake,

I’ve only done a first impression of the sound quality of N20 vs. Titan Nucleus. I had the N20 on loan from my dealer.

I set things up using a SPDIF (i.e. RCA) connection on the N20 with the Word Clock sync. I had the Titan setup with ProUSB. The connection from the Titan to the ProUSB was done with WireWorld Platinum Starlight 8 USB cable (that’s a premium USB cable).

In my first impression, I didn’t notice a difference. However, with the Titan/ProUSB I was able to stream DSD512, which is something you can’t do over SPDIF. I don’t really have need to stream DSD512, but I just wanted to know if that was going to work.

I wasn’t able to do a more extensive comparision as my system is in the middle of an upgrade… new amps (M500) and new speakers.

One of the things I understand about ProUSB, which is different from using just a regular USB cable, is that ProUSB uses the Word Clock to do transfers. This, I think, is going to reduce USB noise inside the Cascade. That is, that the transfers take place when Cascade wants them to, rather than making the Cascade service an asynchronous event. I think the ProUSB connect is amazing!

The N20 didn’t seem to have a sound quality advantage, and even its isolated USB output is nowhere near as isolated and the ProUSB fiber connection.

Also, I do listen to a lot of classical music, and I found the Roon interface to be easier to work with than the N20 Conductor interface for classical music. I find it is easier to “explore” music with Roon.

I don’t see the ability of the N20 to down-scale DSD so that it can be sent of SPIDIF an advantage. It seems that the Cascade can handle anything encoding/rate you throw at it.

One thing I prefer to do when I buy tracks is to by the version that is the same as the encoding used in the recording session. For example, on NativeDSD I would by a 16/44.1 track rather than a DSD256 track if the recording session used 16/44.1. What NativeDSD (and others) do to produce high resolution tracks is to upscale the original session with software, like HQPlayer Pro. I feel any changes Cascade can do a better job with the original recording bits than any DSP can. That just my opinion of course.

Overall, I didn’t see an advantage in switching to the N20 for me. The Titan via ProUSB really works well for me. Your milage may vary…

Dan

[Easyglider]

Dan, thanks for your detailed explanations. I am also interested in the differences between an expensive server and a “normal” pc based Roon server.
Have you tried the N20 USB output to the ProUSB interface? Or you have only tried the S/Pdif connection?
Thanks

[Dan]

Hi Des,

I only tried the SPDIF connection. I wanted to try the SPDIF because it syncs to the Word Clock from the Cascade.

Dan